The following is part of a series in which CERES graduate students interview the members of the new CERES Board of Advisors.
Ambassador John J. Sullivan has been Distinguished Fellow at CERES since 2022 and joined the CERES Board of Advisors when it was created. Ambassador Sullivan’s career spans four decades in the public sector and in private law practice. He has served five presidents in prominent diplomatic and legal positions, including as U.S. Ambassador to the Russian Federation under Presidents Donald Trump (December 2019 to January 2021) and Joe Biden (January 2021 to October 2022). Before his post in Moscow, he served for almost three years as the U.S. Deputy Secretary of State after a bipartisan 94-6 confirmation vote in the U.S. Senate in 2017. Currently, he is a partner in Mayer Brown’s Washington DC and New York offices, co-lead of the firm’s National Security practice, and Chair of the Board of Directors of the U.S. Institute of Peace. His memoir about his tenure in Moscow when Russia invaded Ukraine is entitled Midnight in Moscow: A Memoir from the Front Lines of Russia’s War Against the West.
Please tell us how you ended up combining law with diplomacy. When did you make this decision and how did you go about it?
Amb. Sullivan: Well, it certainly wasn’t a conscious, thought-through decision I made early in my career. What I did, after getting my law degree and clerking for a federal judge and a supreme court justice, was I selected jobs in government where I was a lawyer in an office that had a national security or foreign affairs mission. The first such position was at the Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department, which often decides legal issues of import for national security and foreign affairs matters that are presented to the President and the Attorney General. For example, when President George H. W. Bush was considering deploying US forces to the Persian Gulf in response to Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait, it was the Office of Legal Counsel that provided legal opinions on whether a declaration of war was necessary before the US military was used to expel the Iraqis from Kuwait or whether a Congressional resolution was sufficient.
It’s a big jump to go from doing background legal work, albeit important legal work, to actually doing diplomacy, and it was fortuitous in how it worked out in my case because I was picked by Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis and was nominated by the Trump 45 Administration to be the general counsel of the Defense Department. Again, a legal job, but clearly with a national security/foreign affairs focus. Through Secretary Mattis, I met Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and he then asked me if I wanted to be Deputy Secretary of State. My nomination to be general counsel of the Defense Department was withdrawn and I was nominated to be Deputy Secretary of State.
What would you say were the highlights both before and after this shift?
Amb. Sullivan: The most significant professional experience I had before becoming Deputy Secretary of State was being the deputy general counsel of the Defense Department in President George W. Bush’s first term. That really was a major professional education because I’d not served in uniform. I’d never been inside the Pentagon until I went to interview for the job and that — more so than being Deputy Secretary of Commerce — was transformative for me. Just learning the bureaucracy, and how it worked was a major task because the Defense Department in and of itself is so sprawling, with a budget larger than the GDP of most countries. And it’s not just sprawl geographically all over the world, but also many very different components.
Despite there being an horrific war going on in Ukraine starting midway through my tenure, I probably enjoyed being ambassador in Moscow more than I enjoyed being deputy secretary of state or commerce. Being Deputy Secretary of State was an all-consuming 24-7 undertaking, and that was much more physically and emotionally demanding. I didn’t really have time to think about that much about enjoying or savoring the experience.
I loved living in Moscow. I loved being ambassador, though I had serious issues and concerns with the Russian government. Even before the war started, I knew that Russia was an entrenched adversary of the United States. And after the war started, Putin called the United States an enemy of Russia.
What motivated you to join the Board of Advisors at CERES?
Amb. Sullivan: Having joined CERES and SFS as a distinguished fellow, it was logical. I considered it part of my role as a member of the CERES community. We started our conversation today with my lament that because of my book tour I have not been able to spend as much time on campus at CERES with our student discussion group, Valdai West. But my service on the board really grows out of my interest in being a part of CERES.
It’s a challenging time for the program, particularly for those students who are interested in Russia, because we can’t send students to study and learn on the ground what Russia is like. I was fortunate to live there for three years, but given the sanctions and the fact that there is a war going on, there is an enormous challenge to travel there now. And it’s even more problematic because it’s as necessary as ever that we understand Russia, and that we have experts, including young experts coming up through the pipeline, who understand Russia, and who speak Russian.
I’ve had students at Georgetown ask me, “am I wasting my time studying Russian? Russia is so isolated now.” And my response to that is: it’s as important as it’s ever been, including during the Cold War.
What do you enjoy doing during your free time?
Amb. Sullivan: You know I’m just starting to think about that now, because during my service in government I didn’t have time for hobbies or interests, outside interests. And when I came back from Moscow toward the end of 2022, I immediately jumped into writing a book which took until the early spring of 2024. I had a bit of a break in June 2024 after I recorded the audio version of the book. I did some personal travel and started to work out and try to get back into shape. Then I started a book tour, and it’s been a pretty grueling six months traveling to talk about my book.
I’ve traveled all over the place. And most interestingly, I think you’ll appreciate this, I’ve been invited to — and really enjoyed traveling to — big state schools in the South. I’ve been to the University of Oklahoma, University of Kentucky, University of Alabama, and soon I’m going to the University of Texas. I’ve found there is a real interest at these schools in hearing from people from Washington and talking about the issues that we work on all day at SFS and CERES. There are a lot of schools, big schools with smart students who really crave the opportunity to talk to people who’ve been involved in these issues, and I find it gratifying to go and speak at these schools.
Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you would like to add?
Amb. Sullivan: You asked why I joined the Board, and I want to say that I get so much more back from CERES than I give. I get so much out of the discussions we have in Valdai West while sitting around a conference table. I believe I certainly give something to the students, but because of their varied backgrounds, where they are from, their perspectives on the war in Ukraine, and their interest in the same geographic area in which I served as diplomat, it’s been a great opportunity for me to test out ideas and talking points. I’ve used it used it for my own benefit and in doing so I certainly enjoyed it–and I hope the students have enjoyed it as well.
Thank you, Ambassador Sullivan!